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Welcome to Tales From the Rabbit Hole. I'm your host Mick West. My guest today is Professor David Keith

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Professor Keith has been a target of conspiracy theorists. And the reason is that he is a professor who is an expert in

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geoengineering also known as climate engineering

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Geoengineering is the science of deliberately modifying the climate of the earth by doing things like spraying things into the upper atmosphere

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At the moment is a very theoretical

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Science because really nothing's have been done yet

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but it hasn't stopped the conspiracy theorists who think that the chemtrails conspiracy theory is actually about

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covert

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geoengineering

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Couple of terminology points we talk about radiative forcing

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That's the difference between incoming and outgoing heat on the planet and it's what the carbon dioxide greenhouse effect

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Modifies and it's also what we would try to modify by doing some kind of geoengineering to reflect more heat back into space. For example

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We also talked about Arctic methane

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These are large deposits of methane

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which is a very powerful greenhouse gas in the Arctic and

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There's a concern that this might all melt rather rapidly and cause a kind of runaway global warming

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some people have been quite

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apocalyptic in their predictions of this Arctic methane and that's been seized upon by the

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Conspiracy theorists as being some kind of rationale for a secret geoengineering chemtrails program

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We discuss all these things with Professor David Keith

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So

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Professor David Keith welcome to tales from the rabbit hole and thank you very much for being here

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Thanks. Great to be here pleasure. Okay, so you are the professor of Applied Physics at Harvard and

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you were also one of the founders of

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carbon

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Engineering and you are the head of the the Keith group at Harvard

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Well, that doesn't mean anything other than I'm a professor at Harvard. So okay sounded very impressive to me

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I'm a professor at the Kennedy School of Government

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Okay, Austin, earring and an engineering and Sciences at at Harvard and most other big science faculty

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We just call individual people's

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research groups by the name of the person

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Not just standard doesn't mean anything right? Okay. All right

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so

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Have been affected by conspiracy culture and you are one of the people I think who whose name comes up most often

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in terms of

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Targets of people who are interested in the chemtrail conspiracy theory and the chemtrail conspiracy

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theory kind of focuses around the idea that

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Trails being sprayed out of planes are some kind of secret form of

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geoengineering, which is altering the climate and this of course is your

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principal area of research

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geoengineering your your history of geoengineering goes back a long way back to

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92 I think is when you had your first paper published on the subject

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Yeah, I think that's right. I got interested in

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Climate in the late 80s and I think I began to work on geo sharing among other

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Topics sort of around 89 probably, okay

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When did you first become aware of this kind of strange intersection between your work and this?

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Chemtrails last covert geoengineering conspiracy theory. That's a good question. I don't think I remember that. Well, I should have

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Looked through my email inbox beforehand, but I would say

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more than 10 years ago, but certainly in the

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2000s. I feel like I didn't see it before that, but I could be wrong. I actually just don't remember

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Yeah

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You think he kind of gradually kind of crept into your consciousness perhaps because it was perhaps not that big of a thing at first

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Well, it was it felt pretty big pretty early. I'm it certainly felt pretty big sort of ten years ago. Um

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But I think it wasn't I don't remember

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Seeing this much in the 90s

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but

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targeting me or things that were you know using

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Using my words or speeches edited somehow to to in part of the the conspiracy culture world

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So I think that's more recent really the last decade. Yeah

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I was just looking through some of the stuff that on you on YouTube and

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You you did a TED talk back in 2007, which was just basically laying out, you know

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the type of things that you've been researching and the possibility of doing a

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Climate engineering in the future and the comment stream on that is still

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Even though that it was published in 2007 those comments from last week. Oh well saying that

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Yeah, you are destroying the world and things like that. Yeah, so I think there's been a kind of constant

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constant stream of people commenting on that one video since 2007, which is quite quite impressive you

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published the book a case for climate engineering

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in

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2013

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proximately, and I remember you you went on The Colbert Report at the time and

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I remember something's strange is the seemed very strange to be having at the end of that

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So discussion with Stephen Colbert, is that at the end he actually made a joke about chemtrails

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Yeah, I thought it kind of

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Took the wind out of all the good points that you've been making up to that point

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How did you feel about that when that happened?

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I was really pissed off about it and I talked to him afterwards and I had a really thoughtful

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Conversation with him in the inlet in the greenroom afterwards, which yeah made me actually think what a smart interesting guy. He is I

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I think his attitude is make fun of anything and that's his job

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And I think my view was that the way he did it tended to lead

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Credence to that point of view in a way that I thought was destructive

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and

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That he didn't do it in a way that kind of made fun of the conspiracy theorists in a way that I thought was effective

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So I was kind of disappointed in that but you know, yeah

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Yeah, I was also a bit disappointed as well when I watch that that episode

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I thought that you know you made a lot of very good points and he didn't

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He didn't really help with just kind of turning the whole thing into a jerk at the end

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Well, I mean his job is to make each interview a bit of a joke

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So making the whole idea joke, I think is kind of kind of okay. That's what his shows stuff

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Yes, but I felt like throwing on the chemtrail conspiracy theory

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Was was for my point of view about thing, but I've never had you know, I guess he would argue

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He's in that show was trying to pretend to be a right-wing nut job. And so maybe it was consistent, right?

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Yeah, and you talked about a few things in that show that I think have kind of become or always work and talking points with

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these conspiracy theorists and one of those was about

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you know, essentially

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How many people would die?

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And I was just talking to a Kentrell conspiracy theorist the other day

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and he was saying that you were said that the projections for a certain type of geoengineering is that if you did this then

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10,000 people would die directly because of this

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This type of geoengineering attest some kind of stratospheric aerosol injection of sulfur dioxide or something like that

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but you know my point to him was that this is

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Balanced out by the people who wouldn't die now

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do you remember the point you are making there with with that how many people are actually going to die and

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it is it's

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How is it balanced so I don't remember specifically what I said

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But the point that I was trying to make is at least for me in that interview and many others. I've been trying to avoid

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You're really trying to emphasize the risks of solar tearing and avoid over selling it

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and so I think it's important to emphasize specific risks we know about and for

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sulfuric acid in the stratosphere one of the things we for sure know about us but some that's all gonna come down eventually to the

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lower atmosphere and

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It'll be it aerosol like the sulfur aerosol that's already there

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So we put roughly a little now but we're putting 50 million tons a year of sulfur in lower atmosphere

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From fossil fuel combustion and so it would be adding to that and we have you know

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a pretty good understanding of the link epidemiological link between

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particulate matter so-called PM 2.5

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And in air pollution so you can at least could've crudely

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Think about what the total direct risks would be and I mean, you know long after that interview

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We've actually now published papers

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we've looked in some detail about exactly how big that risk is and it's actually kind of interesting cuz you can

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Calculate the direct risk from particles that actually make it down

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You know

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From that particular kind of to ensuring which of course might not be used with a particular level which might not be used you can

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calculate direct risk

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And it's you know for reasonable scenarios is actually quite a bit under ten thousand year more like a few thousand

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Mm-hmm

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But it's important to say that it actually turns out to be that that number small compared to other

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indirect changes in in air pollution

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mortality that actually go in both directions as actually turns out to be quite confusing because there's some effect of effectively

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Reducing reversing climate change the climate change

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Interacts with air pollution in ways that make some pollutants worse than some better

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So when you partially reverse climate change you reverse those changes and those indirect effects turned out to be bigger than the direct effect

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So it's kind of here's a small amount. He's kind of lost in the noise of all these different

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Ups and downs

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Certainly is pretty small, but you can argue and be very small

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We think compared to the you know, what would appear to be the benefits of reduced say

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Deaths from heat stress that would come from climate change

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But again, you know, this is not a you know on your debate

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I think we're not trying to debate here exactly the merits of solar Jewish here

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I think that the question is the way this has been picked up in this conspiracy culture. It's this kind of

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Data point that seems to be unmoored from reality

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Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's a big challenge

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Explaining these things to people, you know

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I I spend a lot of time trying to explain things to people and they were pointing to things like yeah

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you said a certain thing like a famous thing is that

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Yes, something that goes back to your paper in mm that you injuring in the climate history and prospects you talk about the moral hazard

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yeah, a problem of geoengineering and

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Then in a talk that you gave

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You and you said it wasn't immoral so it wasn't so much a moral hazard

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right

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Yes on a miss point of view

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I think it's actually correct, but it's really funny

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Then all these conspiracy theorists think that I'm somehow saying it's a good thing for people are free right on their grandkids

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Which is obviously the opposite of what I actually think and and this is where you can just tell it these people are

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either not trying or they're not honest because you know

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a

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So I do get people

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apologizing for tone for sure

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And I get and I have dialogues where it's clear that people do seem to have changed their minds or even clearly have changed their

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Minds about get dressed. Yes

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Yeah, I think one of the things about you is that they portray you as a monster

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Alleging a terrible thing and yet if they're to read your book like you

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You lay out your own background and you you're kind of an environmentalist you you like being in the outdoors

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You you go camping and things like that and you're obviously a very big fan of the environment and you seem like a very nice

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Guy, well, that's true, but that but that doesn't necessarily so what's really interesting. I feel like Chris

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I mean first of all

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I think the chemtrails

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Conspiracy from what I can tell there's some polling data that we've we've done some of it it's both changed over time

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I feel like it used to be that they would latch onto solar general hearing but the but my impression could be wrong

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We don't have good polling data was that

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The theories were more linked to mass

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Extermination or mind control and and solar gene measuring was kind of just a part of it. Yeah and

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now what's interesting is at least some people in the conspiracy culture around chemtrails actually sound like

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In a sense saying Ruiz things about governance of solar to hearing except for the fact that's not happening yet

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So there's rage like you could almost see some of them morphing into kind of quite legitimate and sensible

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opposition to deployment of solar tea or sharing which I think is a really reasonable thing to be opposed to

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so

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It's kind of interesting. It's moving and the other issue is is the left-right divide. So yeah, I'm a Mentalist lefty

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So presumably if you're an environmentalist

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lefty the fact that I am makes you feel more kinship and so on but lots of people are actually

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Hard right in the chemtrails were like it may actually be better equal but for the hard right ones

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The environmentalism that I have is in no way. It's a sign that I'm

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it's just a sign of my my

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Believe well or I think I think yeah or I think there's another show trying to get respect

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so I think he said that that people on the right legitimately don't want to see an extension of state power and

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Don't want to see reduction in individual rights

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they view

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international environmental controls is a bad thing a priori and

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so

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Belief in climate change or willingness to take it seriously from that part of the right is a sense that believing in climate change

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necessarily means believing in certain kinds of internationalism and government control that

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they think is overrated or they don't like

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Yeah, because you know what you're doing obviously would require a lot of cooperation a lot of the people who are conspiracy theorists

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their fear is that there's going to be a one world government that there is some kind of

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you know some Illuminati New World Order United Nations taking over the world and

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geoengineering

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kind of in a way relies upon

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You know at least the international cooperation

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Yeah to a degree that they don't like

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So do you engine do you engineering research a lot of people that I talk to in the conspiracy?

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Community kind of assume that there's already geoengineering going on

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Can you say what the actual state is of geoengineering specifically solar do engineering?

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Sure, I can say but also we've you know, published and websites

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I mean there's a you know, this point sort of like five hundred scientific papers, which means that

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scientists and academics and research institutes around the world have sat around their offices and written papers and there's people have run climate models and

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There been some laboratory experiments and there been a couple outdoor experiments the most, you know

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clear-cut outtro experiment probably something called ëpeace eastern pacific regional experiment done by some folks at

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at a

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Scripps Institute was releasing a kind of

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smoky

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Smoke basically into marine clouds to see the effect on cloud whitening

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And so that's that's the state of what there is and the number of kind of really active researchers who are spending a good fraction

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Their time on solar Gina sharing is probably I don't know twenty thirty

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worldwide with you know, hundreds and hundreds of researchers who the topic and there's

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You know not even remotely close to developing hardware for deployment. Let alone deployment

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I mean that gets into the whole the parts of the star just you know

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insane in the sense that people think that

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That these contrails are seeing are too much nearing but the kind of Jewish hearing that we're talking about

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Wouldn't make contrails and wouldn't be at that altitude. It wouldn't even look like that

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so there's sort of this total disconnect and the other part of this connect is

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some people

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Say they're researchers. I mean most prominently probably Naomi Wolf who you know, it's just that she's research but like

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two days of research around a few research groups would easily show

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To a pretty high degree of certainty that there was no big conspiracy

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I mean, and she keeps wanting to talk to me

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I think that's probably for her own benefit or ego or something if you really wanted to check

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And you actually doubted I thought I might be lying. You wouldn't waste your time talking to me

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What you do is go interview a bunch of people around and research groups like around my group at Harvard people who weren't me?

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People who might you think not like me who'd be likely

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The theory is that there's some big secret then the issue would be to find out and universities are extraordinarily open places

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so it's very easy to walk into our group and just ask questions and I don't think anybody's ever tried to do that and

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That gives sense to me that

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it's some level people must just like saying this but they can't be serious if you were really waking up in the morning and you

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truly thought there was a conspiracy that threatened the lives of millions and

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You were taking it really seriously

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Surely you would have the energy to go, you know collaborate with some people and do some real research

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which doesn't mean looking at the sky and taking date pictures of things that more or less but same as any other thing they mean

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actually

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you know going to do some digging in the places where people are purported to be doing this and seeing if there seem to be

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Concealing things making inconsistent statements, you know

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They there's lots of digging you could do you could obviously talk to people you could

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Go poke around our offices and look for concealed things that there wouldn't be hurt you

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And and I don't think I've never had any sense that there's interest in the Cantrell's community and actually trying to really investigate

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Yeah, it's fascinating because like you say universities are very open. You can just basically walk into

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Universities and go and talk to people. I mean it's so it's so much clearer

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There's almost impossible to keep things secret universities. I think one of the ways I find the chemtrail, you know that people so

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when I try to talk to people about why

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It's implausible that there actually is large-scale use of chemtrails. It's I don't say the people government is good

247
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You should trust us or academics for good. You can trust us. I assume you should start from position of no trust

248
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But what you should assume is that individual people have a strong motivation to speak out

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so

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You know if there really were chemtrails and there really were as many cam trails as people say there have to be a huge industry

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involving

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thousands tens of thousands of people who were like

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loading equipment and those people would all be I mean a few of them would be the

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masters of the universe but most time would just be regular American citizens who would be highly

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Incented to tell if they believed that government was doing something nefarious

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and of course, you know the argument would be will they be you know, the the the the the

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Government has security resources that would put a bullet in their head if they did but we know from history that in practice

258
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It's extraordinarily hard to keep secrets in governments in open societies even close ones. I mean after all

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in World War two in the most important secret we had which was the

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specific design of the implosion lenses of the plutonium device

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The Russians had the sketches of the design before the test

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you just don't keep secrets very well you can have

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secrets they can keep the operational secret of exactly when the bitline rate is gonna happen, but you

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Governments just can't keep big secrets like this. And so I think people I

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feel like I just try to put myself in the mind of people who think this because

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It it's not that you trust the government

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But it's that you trust regular people to tell and you can see how badly government leaks

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So how could it be that? There was this giant conspiracy wouldn't involve. I mean all idea that kind of except like me

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It's just silly if there was a conspiracy it certainly wouldn't involve people like me

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It would involve people in secret, you know NSA style government rooms

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I'm I'm

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Totally terrible at keeping secrets and I operated in a public environment. But if there were a conspiracy

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it would have to be really big to have that many airplanes and it would have to have a huge amount of concealment and

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There have to be signs

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Especially police say that if they were doing it, perhaps they're also fooling you David Keith and

276
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They're going around you and there's this kind of parallel

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Industry somehow the military side doing it now. Is it is it at all conceivable?

278
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There could be some kind of underground

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operation doing it that you are not aware of and the other people in the geoengineering research community are not aware of a

280
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A priori just say it's conceivable because it's too easy

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But then that's the point is ok. Let's say it's happening there needs to be a reason

282
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So again, why do American citizens keep secrets when they believe the garbin matter?

283
00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:37,540
He's acting for a reasonable purpose and they believe is a good reason so

284
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you know the SEAL team in the bin Laden raid were told not to tell and they had every reason to trust their superiors and

285
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The military chain of command did not tell because there's a coherent purpose we get it that we wanted to capture

286
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Or same for other military secrets, but in this case first of all

287
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you've got the fact that there isn't an obvious purpose that makes any sense and

288
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That it's not a thing that that there seems a good reason for government secrecy

289
00:24:03,309 --> 00:24:05,829
So it would actually be hard to compel people not to tell

290
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And you've got the fact that it would have to be gigantic because if it really is that many airplanes

291
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all of which

292
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huge number of people involved and they'd have to be all concealing and

293
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I think I

294
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think I mean, obviously

295
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It's not that I I don't believe the government. Sometimes do awful things

296
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Um, so I I do believe our government sometimes act badly and do awful things

297
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but I believe there's basically no record ever of a

298
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Long sustained for decades awful thing that were you involved

299
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You know tens of thousands of people that made no obvious sense which governments were people to keep secret

300
00:24:47,710 --> 00:24:51,340
I think it's just there's the the number of cases like that is an empty set

301
00:24:52,429 --> 00:24:59,408
Yeah, in some ways you're getting into the almost like a flutter of territory in terms of how ridiculous the the idea of the conspiracy

302
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is but

303
00:25:01,129 --> 00:25:06,488
at far off flat earth that is better as I think I think I guess it would take more I

304
00:25:07,609 --> 00:25:11,499
Mean, I think it's it's right up there with faking the moon landings for sure

305
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:12,499
Yeah

306
00:25:12,499 --> 00:25:17,618
and some ways faking the moon landing seems easier to believe because now it's kind of lost in history and you can't talk to very

307
00:25:17,619 --> 00:25:22,059
Many people who are directly there, but for this, you know for this to be real

308
00:25:22,059 --> 00:25:25,599
I think so many people just aren't thinking about it if there were that many airplanes

309
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,469
I'm looking up with this guy. Now, there aren't actually any contrasts. But if there were that many airplanes doing it

310
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Those airplanes have to get loaded with materials there has to be that high chain and this is in a pretty open society

311
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I don't understand how people think this

312
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Except I mean except for the obvious that people

313
00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:47,139
like to feel like they're in on a secret they like

314
00:25:47,299 --> 00:25:54,309
there's lots of reasons why people like conspiracies and I think that the answer is people like conspiracies and they're actually not

315
00:25:54,409 --> 00:25:58,508
Motivated to try and figure them out. Otherwise, they wouldn't be conspiracy believers

316
00:25:58,940 --> 00:26:03,580
Yeah, I think a lot of people feel like they're like saving the world in a way they feel that they are

317
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,519
Either I feel like that like they're doing the right thing because they're convinced that that you know

318
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,849
They have the the facts on their at their side

319
00:26:12,850 --> 00:26:17,890
But of course they don't but because they're so strongly motivated is very very difficult to get things across to them

320
00:26:18,020 --> 00:26:21,189
Like there's some practical things you can do like you you

321
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:27,429
You're working on various theoretical forms of geoengineering. What would they actually look like?

322
00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:30,670
If they were so Lloyd. Yeah. Goodbye

323
00:26:31,820 --> 00:26:34,900
Let's work our way up. So if you're talking marine cloud brightening

324
00:26:36,290 --> 00:26:38,589
You know, the classic idea has always been these ships

325
00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:43,870
I think it's actually not clear whether ships or low-flying aircraft would end up being better

326
00:26:44,870 --> 00:26:46,400
but it would be

327
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either low-flying aircraft that are flying a kind of kilometer altitude and frequently dipping down the water to pick up water kind of a

328
00:26:53,690 --> 00:26:57,730
water bomber style, you know firefighting water bomber style or it would be

329
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Ships, you know that we're making big

330
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Faint hazy clouds of this sea salt aerosol and they need to be very specific ships with obvious

331
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Labels and you know wouldn't be hard to tell they were there

332
00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:13,299
um and again remember

333
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:21,189
There's independent third-party knowledge of where basically all ships are now from the know. I like this is and it's used for lacerations

334
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:25,059
So at this point it's almost impossible for governments to lie about it

335
00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:29,349
because the satellite the independent parties know where things are and

336
00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:37,599
likewise of course for aircraft because their craft are on a cars and other systems anyway, so that would be former Marine club right for

337
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:44,799
Cirrus thinning. I'm going up an altitude for Cirrus sitting. I think we really don't know so well, but my guess is it would be

338
00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:47,380
small remotely piloted aircraft

339
00:27:47,809 --> 00:27:52,539
Bigger than a little photo drone, but you know maybe things with a wingspan of a few meters

340
00:27:53,150 --> 00:27:56,469
Because they lost material really tiny and they be you know

341
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Flying in some kind of grid like way and maybe I would guess

342
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Kind of invisible from the ground or invisible without really special

343
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equipment

344
00:28:07,340 --> 00:28:09,340
they'd have to have

345
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Transponders they have to be visible in air traffic controls to be safe and they have to be places where they were flying from

346
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:20,680
But they wouldn't leave a visible trail. No, no business involved at all. Four four

347
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:23,500
four serous thinning and

348
00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:31,479
and they'd be very small aircraft and then for stratospheric aerosol, which is you know, I think most researchers think is sort of the most

349
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:33,710
plausible

350
00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:40,360
Large-scale method of solar to be sharing you'd have aircraft flying in the stratosphere and may be releasing

351
00:28:41,390 --> 00:28:43,749
either a gas so2 or

352
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,620
or h2 so4 aerosols or

353
00:28:48,590 --> 00:28:53,230
or some kind of solid aerosols like calcium carbonate or whatever it was and

354
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:56,410
Those would be first of all

355
00:28:56,410 --> 00:29:03,129
They'd be obviously look pretty different from other aircraft because they flying twice as high so it's difficult to see them things

356
00:29:03,130 --> 00:29:03,640
Just look at it

357
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,570
If you see if I help add to their crowd

358
00:29:05,570 --> 00:29:12,220
They wouldn't make anything that look like regular contrails because they're up there in the warm stratosphere. You don't make contrails in the stratosphere

359
00:29:12,380 --> 00:29:15,550
So basically if you're seeing a contrail like that, it's not the stratosphere

360
00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:22,390
Stratosphere I guess I've never really done the calculations. I think in some of those things like releasing so2 gas

361
00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:25,810
there'd be no visible trail at all in other things like

362
00:29:26,330 --> 00:29:33,069
A solid aerosols ratio. So for I guess there would be but I've never tried to calculate how visible it would be

363
00:29:33,530 --> 00:29:37,569
But it sure as heck would not look like a contrail or a persisting government

364
00:29:37,820 --> 00:29:40,900
Especially that the contrails that be it's so funny actually

365
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:46,660
I've never thought about this the thing that the conspiracy theorists most think are evidence. The conspiracy is actually most evidence of that

366
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:51,040
It's not true because because what what they really seem to think is really weird are

367
00:29:51,290 --> 00:29:56,199
persistent contrails that have these long like if there's a linear feature with the contrail they have these

368
00:29:56,540 --> 00:29:58,540
stripes that come out sideways and this weird

369
00:29:58,550 --> 00:30:04,239
Shearing and we of course understand lots about what that is that the mechanisms the persistent contrails formation and those mechanisms

370
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:06,969
none of them operate that way the stratosphere so

371
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:15,099
Stratospheric older children wouldn't look at all like that. That's very true. Because you just get just turbulent mixing and you want to get the

372
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,570
defects

373
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:22,480
Aerodynamic effects doesn't mix turbulently except. Yeah, it looks quite different initially

374
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,709
we're actually doing computational fluid dynamics simulations right now so we could actually

375
00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:32,170
Like this year I suppose haven't thought about that. It might be kind of a fun paper. We could emulate what the optical

376
00:30:32,810 --> 00:30:38,529
Look of a stratospheric aerosol release would be I've never done it

377
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:41,450
It wouldn't be that hard

378
00:30:41,450 --> 00:30:46,179
It'd be kind of fun and I'm confident it would look completely different from persistent contrails

379
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:48,969
That would be very interesting because I think you know

380
00:30:48,970 --> 00:30:53,740
It's a valid point in irregardless because people are gonna be concerned about what if these planes gonna look like

381
00:30:54,350 --> 00:31:01,690
Yagna, they didn't believe in the the Kentrell theory clear that the planes would would look different from commercial planes because they'd have higher aspect

382
00:31:01,690 --> 00:31:05,019
Ratio wings that is longer thinner wing, right? So if you've ever seen the

383
00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:11,229
ER to u2 aircraft, for example, they'd you know, like a bigger version of that basically

384
00:31:11,230 --> 00:31:14,710
You know presumably with a couple edge ins but but long thin wings

385
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:19,450
So would it be safe to say I'd to make the statement that

386
00:31:20,030 --> 00:31:25,090
Nothing has ever been sprayed out of a plane in furtherance of geoengineering deliberately

387
00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:31,570
Mean for research

388
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:39,159
So we met this there is a published paper by said Russian group that did release the helicopter them from a helicopter. Yes

389
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,410
Yeah, I don't know of something

390
00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:44,240
Well

391
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,740
keep brushing Oh Ricky Loman at a

392
00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:53,019
Ricky Loman at ETH his I think released some aerosols from drones

393
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:55,750
hmm

394
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,690
And I don't know if the mCP exists

395
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:07,930
Either I'm not quite sure I wouldn't want to absolutely say no cuz we write one case right so hardly any

396
00:32:08,390 --> 00:32:12,849
Basically, I just like one or two cases one or two cases ever. Yeah

397
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,950
Yeah, cuz I want to be clear for people whether they know what the actual extent of the research is

398
00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:21,490
That's you you haven't really got to the stage of actually doing these

399
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:23,450
experiments in the air

400
00:32:23,450 --> 00:32:23,950
No

401
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:26,019
I mean we we are is you know as

402
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,360
You and your some of your viewers will know

403
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:32,920
I'm involved in something called the stress for a controlled perturbation experiment Frank quite just the lead and

404
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:36,820
We you know expect to do engineering flights within about the next six months

405
00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:40,239
we don't know there's an advisory committee will be publicly announced in a few weeks and then

406
00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:43,509
we depend on that advisory community before we can fly but

407
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,619
that thing would be a high-altitude balloon which would leave an invisible trail and the balloon would be

408
00:32:57,479 --> 00:32:51,760
not

409
00:32:57,820 --> 00:33:00,059
And how much would you actually be spraying a?

410
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,950
Kilogram or sub material like total for the whole experiment once or twice

411
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,610
Sorry, it's really yeah, you know almost almost nothing really

412
00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:13,259
No, we have calculated. I mean it turns out that regular

413
00:33:13,930 --> 00:33:15,930
aircraft commercial aircraft

414
00:33:16,450 --> 00:33:18,659
Release sulfur because there's sulfur in the aviation

415
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,070
And you can calculate the percentage ercell from the aviation fuel in the number of kilograms per hour

416
00:33:24,550 --> 00:33:29,909
Modern aircraft burns and you can calculate that the amount of sulfur that one of those just a conventional, you know

417
00:33:30,670 --> 00:33:33,060
787 or whatever admits is, you know

418
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,770
in a minute, it admits roughly as much Sulphurs our experiment would for example

419
00:33:37,770 --> 00:33:42,119
If we admit it's all four which we probably would do at some point, but wouldn't start with yeah

420
00:33:42,430 --> 00:33:47,669
So it's in a way that you could do geoengineering with planes at normal flight altitude

421
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:49,990
um

422
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:57,900
Well, Pete and backing on commercial traffic some how about so so normal planes do make contrails hmm and Khan

423
00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:59,900
so I

424
00:34:00,430 --> 00:34:03,029
Think the short answer would be no

425
00:34:03,730 --> 00:34:05,880
None this mainstream gr

426
00:34:05,890 --> 00:34:10,919
Methods been discussed would make any sense for regular planes at regular file suits

427
00:34:11,380 --> 00:34:14,969
But there's a whole separate set of ideas, which is that

428
00:34:16,899 --> 00:34:24,059
High clouds can either be warming or heating depending on the time of day in location and so on so

429
00:34:26,649 --> 00:34:32,939
Sometimes contrails regular contrails can actually have a cooling effect because they can be pretty white

430
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:40,349
And other times they can tend to have more of a warming effect and planes can to some extent control if they make contrails by

431
00:34:40,780 --> 00:34:47,219
McConnell formation depends on local relative humidity and so you can fly the airplanes through slightly different flight tracks and so

432
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,580
some people Steve Barrett at MIT has suggested that

433
00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:56,189
It might be possible for just slightly adjust the flight tracks of airplanes not

434
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,209
injecting anything differently airplanes themselves wouldn't change at all you've just

435
00:35:00,820 --> 00:35:02,130
slightly alter the flight track

436
00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:07,829
So you'd make them a little more likely to make contrails during the daytime when they have a cooling effect

437
00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:10,649
and a little less likely to make them in the

438
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:16,049
Nighttime when they have a net warming effect because they have the infrared warning but there's no sunlight and that overall

439
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:17,250
if you did

440
00:35:17,250 --> 00:35:18,400
it might actually

441
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:24,240
provide a little bit of cooling that could you know offset some of the warming that the aviation history otherwise produces and

442
00:35:24,340 --> 00:35:28,979
That's not a crazy idea. It turns out and there are people I think beginning to think about that

443
00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:33,179
So you tell I mean whether or not that's you're hearing as a matter of dispute

444
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:37,620
Yet to my knowledge and if it was happening it wouldn't to be clear

445
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:45,090
Involve any actual material any different than the aircraft now the same aircraft flying with the same engines, right?

446
00:35:46,270 --> 00:35:48,840
Using different flight tracks. It's the exact same emissions

447
00:35:49,690 --> 00:35:51,780
Could could you do it by modulating?

448
00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:58,769
The fuel being used some people suggested that perhaps is the secret mixes of fuel where sometimes they make contrails and sometimes they make less

449
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,809
Contrails by changing the sulfur content of the fuel. I don't think it's no well. I'm not an expert

450
00:36:03,810 --> 00:36:08,580
So so this guy there are people who I mean there there are people who you know spend their lives studying contrails

451
00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:11,999
I'm not one of them. I think it's actually the salt of contact

452
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,810
I don't think has anything to do with it or isn't very important

453
00:36:15,810 --> 00:36:19,499
But there is something that's important regarding whether or not you have cyclic

454
00:36:21,490 --> 00:36:24,149
Organic compounds or straight chains, basically

455
00:36:24,730 --> 00:36:29,730
Like benzene style compounds that have you know for those you have a basic chemistry that have ring

456
00:36:29,830 --> 00:36:32,549
structures compared to more straight train crunchers and and

457
00:36:33,460 --> 00:36:40,110
Biofuels versus fossil fuels have slightly different mixtures, and those things have different ice different contrail forming properties

458
00:36:40,110 --> 00:36:44,789
And so one of the questions is is Airlines are interested in biofuels. Do those

459
00:36:45,010 --> 00:36:50,909
Yeah, do those alter the conformation and there's some literature on that. I don't know the details so in

460
00:36:51,550 --> 00:36:53,080
principle I

461
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:59,880
guess it's right that's switching between a biofuel mixture and a conventional aviation kerosene would slightly change contrails, but

462
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:06,330
no aircraft do that and I guess there's no real reason why they would

463
00:37:07,450 --> 00:37:09,340
Yes

464
00:37:09,340 --> 00:37:13,960
It's been suggested by, I don't know if you know, Jim Lee. He's a kind of a

465
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:19,770
Chemtrails geoengineering researcher. He really tries to make that case that that is what's actually going on that

466
00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:27,719
Is this some kind of modification in fuels it's actually the early days of the chemtrail conspiracy theory started out with military fuels like jp-8

467
00:37:28,540 --> 00:37:32,310
But they thought that that the new types of military fuels that came in back then

468
00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:39,269
Were actually causing more contrails. So there's certain routes to this Kentrell theory. They go back to a fuel

469
00:37:40,330 --> 00:37:42,330
Makes sense, I think

470
00:37:42,820 --> 00:37:43,900
um

471
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:46,680
But people routinely seem convinced that you know

472
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:47,500
people people

473
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:52,439
being part of this as people look up at the sky and see it filled with persistent contrails and say there's a lot more than

474
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:59,399
There used to be and they're right because there's a lot more travel plans in did and and they're right to be pissed off

475
00:38:00,460 --> 00:38:01,810
um

476
00:38:01,810 --> 00:38:06,539
But it's pretty easy to tell by several different methods what those airplanes are

477
00:38:06,540 --> 00:38:12,749
I mean you can buy a good high quality telescope, and identify airplanes and you separately can look at you know

478
00:38:12,750 --> 00:38:15,510
all the different flight data services that show you what the

479
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:19,800
exact aircraft number is in its track it so you can put all that together yourself and

480
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,700
So it that's actually pretty hard to break because again, it's lots of independent providers

481
00:38:25,709 --> 00:38:30,160
so if you suppose there's some massive conspiracy and there's airplanes that aren't tracked like

482
00:38:32,020 --> 00:38:39,509
That that that's a giant conspiracy because air traffic control depends on people having transponders so and and there's

483
00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:41,590
independent now

484
00:38:41,590 --> 00:38:46,859
Data gathering on those transponders, so it's really hard to I mean you'd have to have a conspiracy

485
00:38:46,859 --> 00:38:50,069
It just was like a sort of mind-numbing Lee broad conspiracy

486
00:38:50,619 --> 00:38:52,619
Well, that's what they're saying

487
00:38:53,740 --> 00:38:57,540
But but does anybody really believe it there are no such things

488
00:38:57,540 --> 00:38:59,790
I think there are a lot of people who

489
00:39:00,190 --> 00:39:06,659
are conspiracy theorists genuinely do believe that these things are going on now and you try to talk them out of it and you try

490
00:39:06,660 --> 00:39:11,730
to explain to them like the the scale of the conspiracy and the practicality of it and they

491
00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:15,060
They just kind of explain these things away in their minds

492
00:39:16,270 --> 00:39:22,379
There must be a way in which it happened because we know that the government does evil things and therefore they must have figured out

493
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:26,580
A way in the military as years ahead of us of Technology. So they they make these vague

494
00:39:27,940 --> 00:39:29,940
explanations for therefore the theories

495
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:32,790
once I talk to you about

496
00:39:33,250 --> 00:39:36,569
the Arctic methane emergency group mmm because

497
00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:40,739
The conspiracy theorists the people who believed in chemtrails

498
00:39:41,020 --> 00:39:48,270
They point to the artic methane emergency group and they say here's a bunch of scientists and they're giving all these dire warnings

499
00:39:48,490 --> 00:39:54,629
that all the methane in the Arctic tundra is going to melt and it's going to be this this runaway event this

500
00:39:55,660 --> 00:39:57,660
this this thing that we can't come back from

501
00:39:59,470 --> 00:40:01,470
Do you think that

502
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:08,190
The Arctic methane emergency groups warnings are valid on how would you can I characterize them?

503
00:40:09,730 --> 00:40:11,879
I'd characterize them as overstated

504
00:40:12,010 --> 00:40:17,909
So there certainly are legitimate concerns about both methane and co2 releases from?

505
00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:23,400
Arctic ecosystems as they warm up and to be clear those aren't like concerns on the side. Those are

506
00:40:24,070 --> 00:40:26,100
built into standard estimates about

507
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,789
climate change they're built into the carbon cycle models that inform overall estimates of how the climate will worm and

508
00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:39,720
there are concerns that those standard models don't include enough knowledge about how much methane or

509
00:40:41,410 --> 00:40:45,720
Co2 will be released from melting permafrost, but there's know a lot of experiments which you know are

510
00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:52,110
interesting and some of them do seem to show that there may be the numbers bigger than we thought but I have not seen a

511
00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:54,809
coherent set of arguments that shows this kind of

512
00:40:55,540 --> 00:40:56,590
massive

513
00:40:56,590 --> 00:40:58,420
runaway tipping point

514
00:40:58,420 --> 00:41:00,420
Iiiiii I haven't

515
00:41:00,490 --> 00:41:02,400
That's not to say there isn't some argument like that

516
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,049
but I haven't seen it and at least some of the people in that group I

517
00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:10,889
Forget but about almost a decade ago on the geoengineering

518
00:41:11,410 --> 00:41:12,910
Google Group I had a

519
00:41:12,910 --> 00:41:17,789
exchange with one of the leaders of that group who was very convinced that sea ice would be gone in a decade and I I

520
00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:19,800
Think I offered a bet. I don't think we actually did it

521
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,370
but of course the ice wasn't gone in a decade and I think the answer is

522
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,030
Go back and look at how confident they were ten years ago and then evaluate

523
00:41:28,930 --> 00:41:33,869
Yeah, and I obviously didn't come to pass I mean they've become doomsaying for quite a while

524
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:41,909
And summertime is absolutely going down it's going down. Yeah and some set of early models predicted

525
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:45,990
It's very disturbing. But the idea that there's some massive threshold

526
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:53,669
Doesn't seem to be there in the data. It's interesting. There is kind of like a little subset of the climate scientists who have this

527
00:41:54,369 --> 00:41:59,759
This very strong concern it seems I mean, how would you characterize it in terms of like overall?

528
00:42:00,309 --> 00:42:03,989
Climate scientists. I think I think I mean like

529
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:07,409
scientists are not divorced from politics and

530
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:12,869
People many people in the climate science world certainly including me would like to see much more

531
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:21,088
action to restrict emissions than there is now and so the climate science community will sometimes try five ways to talk about the problem that

532
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:26,879
Emphasize the risks and emphasized the need for urgent action, and I think talking about tipping points

533
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,510
Which is a very kind of powerful image. I think not that useful scientifically

534
00:42:31,059 --> 00:42:36,599
they're talking about tipping points and talking about things like these methane runaways is a you know a good way to

535
00:42:36,910 --> 00:42:39,299
mitigate to - seems to be a good way to

536
00:42:39,609 --> 00:42:41,609
argue for the action and in fact almost

537
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,480
Everybody who's involved in climate science agrees with which is that we ought to do more to cut emissions

538
00:42:46,270 --> 00:42:49,919
Yeah, so it's almost like they're just gonna be exaggerating

539
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,990
I'm putting a focus on this one thing for good here way and oh, they actually wants to you know, take the actions

540
00:42:55,270 --> 00:43:00,929
Yeah, and I won't take the actions - but I don't believe there's this such a simple argument through Arctic methane, right?

541
00:43:02,650 --> 00:43:07,650
So, what do you think he's actually gonna happen with geoengineering over the next decades so I

542
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:15,479
I mean, I have no idea. I really don't I think it's it's extraordinary hard to predict how

543
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:21,660
social how new technologies like this will emerge or not and and so I

544
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:29,339
do would say over the last year just even just a year or so the level of

545
00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:34,169
Interest in solar generation research in

546
00:43:35,020 --> 00:43:37,649
elite sort of thought leaders in

547
00:43:38,349 --> 00:43:42,239
climate policy and climate science is is increased pretty

548
00:43:43,059 --> 00:43:49,259
Dramatically so many more people in the big environmental groups or in government agencies. Who?

549
00:43:49,470 --> 00:43:55,949
About climate or in the kind of climate science world now seem to take serious idea that we should have a serious

550
00:43:56,380 --> 00:43:59,820
Real research program you're more than just a few little University groups

551
00:43:59,820 --> 00:44:05,519
Like it is now to understand more about these technologies and their risks and how they be governed not to say everybody

552
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:11,280
There's some really thoughtful people who are great climate scientists and and activists who who believe there shouldn't be research

553
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,769
um plenty of people do but I'd say

554
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:16,890
My view is that there's been a pretty strong

555
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,560
Movement towards supportive research and I expect there will be

556
00:44:23,230 --> 00:44:26,159
substantially more research say five years from now than there is now

557
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,800
so

558
00:44:29,140 --> 00:44:34,890
If I was going to guess I'd say there'd be many more national programs and the national programs would be you know

559
00:44:35,050 --> 00:44:36,270
They're not gonna be huge

560
00:44:36,270 --> 00:44:38,520
But I would expect to see you know

561
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:45,510
Tens of millions of dollars a year for sure and and maybe hundred class what should still be, you know of order one

562
00:44:46,030 --> 00:44:51,330
You know a few percent ten percent to a few percent of the amount and now spent for climate science

563
00:44:51,369 --> 00:44:57,749
So I think that's quite a plausible outcome. Then of course what happens next depends on the results that research to some level and

564
00:44:58,330 --> 00:45:02,459
I think it's completely possible. That'll be research program and there will never be deployment

565
00:45:03,099 --> 00:45:04,630
I

566
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:07,950
Think it's very hard to guess where there will be deployment. Um

567
00:45:09,550 --> 00:45:11,550
My you know

568
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:17,369
Overall guess would be probably yes, but with very little confidence that I or anybody else is good at predicting their future

569
00:45:18,490 --> 00:45:20,380
do you have like a

570
00:45:20,380 --> 00:45:22,210
lower bound on

571
00:45:22,210 --> 00:45:24,210
When you think that you might happen?

572
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:27,160
Well, that's what it is

573
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:34,290
So because at least if you ask if you give my personal opinion would be the deployment that that we should do lots of research

574
00:45:35,740 --> 00:45:38,790
Experiments but experiments are all much too small to alter the climate

575
00:45:41,020 --> 00:45:48,899
Indoor experiments outdoor experiments the most of all modeling assessment etc. And then then if there were yeah

576
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,929
If some set of nations and obviously a big question is like what nations and how they decide and how other nations

577
00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:57,099
interact

578
00:45:57,099 --> 00:46:01,379
but but forgetting exactly how those decisions are made if you ask me as a

579
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:08,040
Scientist, I would suggest I would suggest starting very slowly in start with with

580
00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:13,798
Deployments that were at the level of less than 1/10 of a watt per square meter of radiative forcing globally

581
00:46:14,109 --> 00:46:16,919
Which would still allow us to learn a lot about unexpected?

582
00:46:19,089 --> 00:46:23,879
Responses not responses to the climate itself but responses of stratospheric aerosol Zoar

583
00:46:24,819 --> 00:46:29,369
or if you're doing serious thinning or rain clouds in all those cases you learn a lot more about

584
00:46:30,339 --> 00:46:34,529
Efficacy and side-effects by doing that and and I think it makes sense to do that for like a decade

585
00:46:34,990 --> 00:46:39,599
So, you know, I think you could argue that it would make sense to begin doing something like that

586
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,849
You know within less than two decades from now

587
00:46:43,359 --> 00:46:48,869
That would still be before there was large-scale deployment with the with the effects be measurable

588
00:46:48,869 --> 00:46:51,899
We keep doing it in such a small scale. Would you have to tell that it's working?

589
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,179
Um you'd be able to well working is there's a multi-dimensional thing

590
00:46:57,180 --> 00:47:02,430
You would something the climate affects, but you would be able to see that say for stress for your carousels

591
00:47:02,950 --> 00:47:07,079
You'd absolutely be able to see the changes tries for your carousels

592
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:11,519
You'd be able to measure the change when week already divorced the change in in in radiation

593
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,179
You'd be able to measure some subsidiaries chemical effects. You'd be able to learn a lot

594
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,089
But you wouldn't directly see the climate response

595
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:26,159
Yeah, if someone was doing climate engineering now is with some kind of aerosol injection would we be able to tell is for some tests?

596
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,160
That we could do. Um, I

597
00:47:30,819 --> 00:47:32,430
Think the big picture answers. Yes

598
00:47:32,430 --> 00:47:38,040
I mean it's interesting to kind of scratch your head and think about really weird corner cases that are conceivably conceivable by night

599
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:39,510
You know

600
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:44,699
There are there's now a whole series of independent independent meaning different nations different

601
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:47,760
scientific authorities have lots of different instruments that measure

602
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:51,298
Aerosols in different ways in the stratosphere and the troposphere etc

603
00:47:51,299 --> 00:47:54,719
And so and we measure both the amount of aerosols

604
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:56,079
but then there are

605
00:47:56,079 --> 00:48:01,409
scientific experiments that measure the specific composition of aerosols that would then be very sensitively

606
00:48:01,569 --> 00:48:07,319
Detecting any kind of new strange unexpected aerosol. That was that was emitted, you know, so for example there people

607
00:48:08,109 --> 00:48:11,639
measuring aerosol composition in both the stratosphere and the troposphere

608
00:48:11,859 --> 00:48:17,279
and they're matching that against models of what we think that composition should be from pollution sources and if there was a

609
00:48:17,650 --> 00:48:19,650
Substantial new source, you'd know it

610
00:48:19,869 --> 00:48:22,739
In the applications, so, you know

611
00:48:23,830 --> 00:48:25,240
Is it possible that?

612
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:30,389
Some one aircraft has gone up and sprayed sulfur in the stratosphere just to say they could you can't rule that out

613
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:31,050
It's totally possible

614
00:48:31,050 --> 00:48:34,709
They never had it also presents no real risk and wouldn't really be doing anything for just one aircraft

615
00:48:35,050 --> 00:48:39,090
But I think what you can say is it's not happening at scale because we'd observe it, right

616
00:48:39,790 --> 00:48:41,790
Yes, very fascinating

617
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,449
Well, I like to thank you very very much for this organization

618
00:48:45,450 --> 00:48:48,540
It's been very very interesting and I'm sure lots of other people will find it interesting

619
00:48:49,060 --> 00:48:54,989
Do you have anything else to add sir? Speak to the people who believe in chemtrails or questions about chemtrails?

620
00:48:56,230 --> 00:49:02,849
Sure, I mean to speak to people who believe in chemtrails because there are people who clearly are really well-intentioned to care about the world

621
00:49:02,849 --> 00:49:06,779
they're living worried about that government lying to them and and I think

622
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:14,939
I'd say focus on real problems. There are all sorts of things that governments are doing that need oversight that are wrong

623
00:49:15,490 --> 00:49:18,149
And that's true. I think whether you're on the left or right I

624
00:49:18,910 --> 00:49:23,220
Think in almost any political position you have we ought to be doing a better job on climate

625
00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:26,849
well, there's a big range of different people's views about what it better is and

626
00:49:30,099 --> 00:49:33,779
That you don't have to trust government well you should trust is

627
00:49:34,359 --> 00:49:37,229
Individuals, so so don't place your trust in government

628
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:44,520
but but place your trust in individuals and if you really believe there's a conspiracy like chemtrails and you think through

629
00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:47,639
What it would actually take in terms of supply chain to do it

630
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:53,550
I think you can't avoid the fact that that you come up with the idea that there would be tens of thousands of people involved

631
00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:54,369
and

632
00:49:54,369 --> 00:49:58,079
What you're trusting is not the goodwill of the US government or any other government?

633
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:06,359
What you're trusting is that it did if there's tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who potentially know a terrible secret in

634
00:50:06,670 --> 00:50:09,540
A world where people have cell phones that he's in communication

635
00:50:10,060 --> 00:50:16,349
you just they're just not all gonna be secret and even if there's the idea that there's you know a threat of

636
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:20,399
You know threat of their death by some agency that wants to keep a secret

637
00:50:20,619 --> 00:50:23,608
we know that people are willing to risk their lives to

638
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:26,220
Do - to expose secrets?

639
00:50:31,980 --> 00:50:28,390
and

640
00:50:31,980 --> 00:50:34,679
Maybe you may or may not agree with but it's clear that people will do that

641
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:40,889
And so the reason that you should not believe in this conspiracy theory is that it's just not plausible

642
00:50:41,170 --> 00:50:47,909
that tens of thousands of your fellow citizens would all do something that was either pointless or terrible and

643
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:56,339
none of them would use easy tools at hand like cell phones or release of electronic records to tell and you know,

644
00:50:56,340 --> 00:51:00,960
Look at the kind of information has been released. So we now you know through the various WikiLeaks things

645
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,389
We have release of all sorts of top-secret

646
00:51:06,190 --> 00:51:08,279
Communications traffic from US intelligence

647
00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:12,329
gathering and and and diplomatic missions and

648
00:51:13,540 --> 00:51:20,190
I'm not defending or making any comment on whether or not those releases were a good thing, but the fact is people do leak and

649
00:51:20,770 --> 00:51:22,060
and

650
00:51:22,060 --> 00:51:26,730
You just it's just not plausible that that many people that with that many people involve

651
00:51:26,730 --> 00:51:30,329
You wouldn't have some of them who would do the right thing and therefore it's not happening

652
00:51:30,330 --> 00:51:34,410
and if that's not happening what I hope you who do believe in it will do is

653
00:51:34,810 --> 00:51:38,370
Think seriously about other useful things to do to help your community

654
00:51:38,410 --> 00:51:42,809
whatever way you like whether you're on the right or the left help a community live in a better world and

655
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:50,339
Also, and this is more personal. I think there's a way in which spreading hateful language and hate on the Internet

656
00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:52,820
Yeah, I get I get absurdly

657
00:51:53,290 --> 00:51:57,390
you know over-the-top death threats anti-semitic ate the whole thing and

658
00:51:59,020 --> 00:52:04,500
This does not make the world a better place for anybody and there's no version in the world that I think any of us

659
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:08,369
Really wants to live in that is made better by people spreading those kind of lies in hatred

660
00:52:09,010 --> 00:52:15,779
Just wonderful. Thank you completely agree with all of that and thank you very much again for this discussion. Thanks a lot, bye-bye